Wipe Threshold

A while back I wrote a post called “The Raider Code.” Back when I wrote that post LFR was not what it is today and we did not know how much it would change the game. My wipe threshold used to be in the 100s because I used to not mind at all teaching the fights to other people. Today raiding is a different game. Nobody has the patience to learn a fight anymore. There is a video of it, there is LFR, there is just one wipe. There is no wipe Threshold, bosses should just be dropping at the sheer size of our purples. I see people geared better than me under performing all the time, and I asked myself why is the gap so big? I think the answer is LFR.

Cataclysm started to create the division between people that enjoyed learning mechanics to kill bosses and people that would just rather not die even once. You can be very good at WoW, good at questing, good at gathering, good at the auction house; but just like with any other skill practice is what will make you good at those things. I like raiding, I have done it since late BC and had plenty of chances to die because of mechanics. However, the learning curve was different for me than someone that started raiding in this expansion. I have died to mechanics over and over before, so I know that standing on something that makes me lose health will kill me. I have done content when even a couple of second of standing on something or not reacting to means everyone dies. Those mechanics are things I do without even thinking now, but not everyone has had the same number of wipes I have. Another factor is computing power. I was reminded of this not too long ago when I had to play WoW on a 2 year old laptop. The game has changed so much in this last couple of years that it almost feels unplayable. I say almost because even though I would not dare to raid on a slow connection I was able to complete an LFR. That is where my issue comes with the game today, LFR is killing the game for me.

I used to be content doing normal modes most of the time and heroics when I could get a group going that wanted to wipe a little more. Today, that same group can only do normals. Its weird but content has become so challenging that to have progression rate of any kind the mechanics have to be super complex on the surface. I would not say challenging because in reality none of what we see today in LFR or normals is really challenging with a group of seasoned raiders, however to think that someone that has been only raiding LFR can do normals is unrealistic.

A lot of people that used to play before are now content only seeing bosses via LFR. That alone poaches the numbers of normal raiders everywhere. After a couple of weeks of clearing an instance or completing the part of the legendary quest they need there is really no incentive to keep playing. Better gear with a little more stats is not enough. Being able to upgrade that gear with valor is not enough. There is really no intensive for someone to wipe 100 times trying to do a boss in normal if they can just go to LFR and LOL 6 Deternimation stacks DERP!

Raiding used to be an exercise in learning mechanics at a certain pace. Some guild could do 30 pulls in one night, others only 10… now most groups are tired after just a handful. Why would you want to have a repair bill if you can just do LFR? It really makes no sense to wipe over and over for just a little more item levels and stats. I really can’t argue with that point and sometimes I question my sanity for trying to still raid normals.

I am curious though, and the reason for this post is kind of to find out within the player base we have in our guild, what kind of players do we have today?

Making LFR harder or normals easier won’t solve the problem either. I know LFR itself is making me want to stop playing WoW because of the toxic behavior that almost every group has. A tool like LFR should have a ranking system that will allow you to rate other players… then again, they would never do that in WoW.

The Current State of WoW

Pandaria

Some days I feel like not playing WoW anymore. There are tons of things to do in the back yard, a lot of more reading I want to do, learning another language… the list goes on and on. Then I actually jump into the game and use it for what I have always used it for, catch up with a friend about their week. Since I started playing WoW the social aspect is what has kept me logging in again and again.

I got really close to quitting WoW last week. Weather is getting nice, I just got back from a quick bike ride and I thought, man I really don’t want to log into the game at all. Then I realized something, I was not enjoying the social aspect of the game anymore. The game to me has always been about doing things with my friends, be it raiding, PvP or just the grinding of questing was all done with friends and had a blast. I was raiding with a group I was getting to know and liked, but the format (25 man somewhat progression oriented) and the pace (3 days a week) was simply not for me. I started to dislike the game and it made me take a step back and look at why I was playing the game.

Cataclysm really killed the game for me in many ways. MoP revived it in some ways, but the daily grind killed it for many of my friends. We were left with a small group of people that still wanted to play but simply not the numbers to do so. For a while we struggled trying to do the raid thing until people just not showing up became an issue. We thought a larger group will be the solution but it really was not.

Blizzard is getting better and better about tuning, not just raid bosses but the game overall. It does not take a whole expansion to fix the big issues but rather a patch.

The beginning of MoP gave us a wonderful new place to discover until the moment we started to play our alts and realized that we had a lot of content to redo with them… the problem was that it was the same content we already did with our main. Cataclysm had done a huge disservice to all of us getting us used to instant catch up for alts, instead we were met with the reality that if you wanted an alt with a max profession you would have to not only get that toon to 90, but you also had to do the whole reputation grind. If you wanted to get that toon ready for raiding… good luck, drops are not easy to come by and the valor gear is double gated (valor points + rep to buy them). It really punished the people that got used to having a stable of max level characters to raid with… I think it hit harder the medium level guilds like ours that relied on alts to do more than just one raid group a week. While you can argue that LFR is for those people, the fact is that LFR unless you have 25 people you know is an exercise in patience… I dread joining LFR… LFR is worse than pugging.

So that burned a lot of people out.

Then this last patch came out and things got a little more stable again. There is no instant catchup like there used to be, but you can very easily jump from regular to heroics to LRF now. The drop rates are way more forgiving and the last 2 rep grinds are almost enjoyable (unless you want to do them on an alt.) This is a great time to come back to the game. In one week of Shield Wall dailies and new Thunder Isle with some luck you can be ready to join a raid team. The story part is also pretty amazing, and if you want to take your time and just do one part at a time it is actually quite a great piece of story telling.

I know this post is all over the place but since I have not blogged in so long I just wanted to put some of it down just to get it out.

I guess what I am trying to say is that overall I am enjoying WoW and mostly because of the social aspect. I still love playing with my friends in a relaxed environment. I am not interested in heroic raiding anymore, just normal raiding seems to be a good difficulty. Getting Firelord or two healing Spine before MoP came out were not the experiences I thought they would be… mostly because I was not doing it with my friends. The most fun I have with this game is downing a new boss with a group of my friends. I have to keep that in mind and continue to have fun with the game, I have never cared about geared and I already proved it to myself that I can play at a more hardcore level… it is just simply not for me. I have a lot more fun making fun of Froto or Kati for standing on something or blinking off the ship :)

Will Challenge Modes Kill Raiding?

One of the features that I have been looking forward to is challenge modes. When it comes to content and lockouts, the game has made it so my friend Froto once he is locked to the instances for the week he has nothing to do. If I did not have alts I would be on the same boat.

I pride myself on being a decent tank and a slightly better healer. We have exceptional players in the guild right now, but we are a couple of people short of a solid 10 man raiding wrecking crew. That said we do have an amazing challenge mode team. We have always dominated dungeons and have been doing speed runs just to compare with each other. Now there is bling involved which will make it even cooler.

There has been a lot of crying from 25 man guilds that not giving them a higher status when it comes to rewards killed them. I did see that in the old server when a belt dropping 3 weeks in a row lead to gear drama and a 25 man groups demise.

I seem to be in the minority with GrumpyElf. I don’t care about gear. I do however like mounts and titles. Gear to me is an annoyance that has created nothing but drama. People seem obsessed with collecting it and when they do, they feel like they are done and don’t want to collect it for others. I think if we all kept our awesome gear for a whole expansion with new content, the game would be more enjoyable.

Gear has become a meaningless grind and I think the fun will be in challenge modes.

I mean, you can get legendaries that the next expansion makes useless. That just does not seem fair after all the work you put into them.

I don’t hope it kills raiding altogether, or raiding guild themselves. I do think that it will be people like me that like the challenge with a group.

The fun in raiding has dwindled for many. Even thought the game has grown to a healthy size, the raiding population at the hardcore level seems to be shrinking. The biggest reason is that not many people have the amount of time or stomach it takes to wipe to a boss 400 times. I however enjoy trying to figure out the best pull for every trash group in a dungeon. I think having hardcore guilds figure out the most effective way to do something takes the fun out of it. Gear makes it so instead of having fun with encounters we want to maximize kills so people get more gear.

I think challenge modes will be happy mediums.

I am still trying to figure out what the right speed will be for our guild. Do we want to be ready to clear regular dungeons and start on heroics ASAP and make that the progression level? or do we want to kill a boss per week and make the content last?

People will have a week to check things out, hopefully I can recruit a couple more people for permanent spots and we will have a raiding meeting to iron things out. I am very excited about pandas and pet battles… but I can’t wait to see what challenge modes will do and how they will change the game.

Why Does My DPS Suck? – Cool Downs

The “Why Does My DPS suck?” is a post series written for the person starting to raid. While a raider might learn a thing or two, it is written more for the WoW Rookie than for the WoW Pro.

Why Does My DPS Suck?

- Add Ons
- Computer

If you have ever listened on a raid, you might have heard the Raid Leader say, “pop your cooldowns!” sounds like fun doesn’t. If you want to get into raiding one of the first things you should do is ask if you can listen in on a raid. You will start to get a sense of what is said during the fight. You might be lost at first, but if you que up the videos of the bosses the raid team is attempting you might get a good visual of what they are facing.

Cooldown management is something a lot of new DPS have trouble with. Healers learn quickly that you have to use mana regen abilities to keep their mana pool going, but some DPS don’t know how much DPS they are leaving on the table by not using their cooldowns correctly.

Cooldowns are abilities that give you a boost but have a reset timer. Think of them as the “nitro” boost you see on some racing games. They come in a lot of different shapes and sizes, but they accomplish the same thing, they give you more DPS.

Your trinkets might have something called a “proc” which means you don’t have to worry about them, but if they are an “on use” trinket, that means that you have to click it to get the boost. The simplest way to start experimenting with this cooldown is just to drag the trinket to your bar and use it on click. Another way is probably to macro it to an ability that you already use. The best way is to know exactly when to use it and be smart about it.

Like your trinkets, most classes have abilities that allows them to do a lot more DPS for a short time. You might have heard the term “burst damage” being used. Some classes have lots of it, meaning they pack a punch when they use all their cooldowns. At one point some classes used to be able to line up several and the fabled “one shot macros” were all the rage on PvP. That does not happen all that much anymore, but you can still pack a lot of DPS in a short period of time.

The fight against Deathwing calls for it a lot. This is where saving your cooldowns for that moment it is needed is critical.

If you have played with a Demo Warlock you have probably noticed that they go on demon form. That is one of their DPS cooldowns. You might have also seen a mage get turned into a human icicle, that is a defensive cooldown. You might be thinking that you don’t care about defensive cooldowns, but they are just as important… a dead DPS does ZERO DPS.

As important as finding out what your cooldowns are, it is when to use them. Every boss is different, and also every raid team lines them up a little different.

There are also cooldowns that affect the whole raid like Heroism/Lust. You have to learn when to use your cooldowns and how they are affected by other cooldowns. If your cooldown gives you more strenght, then it is prime for using during the Heroism/Lust phase; however if you cooldown gives you haste, it might not help that much since Heroism/Lust is already giving you that stat and probably will simply be a wasted cooldown.

So your homework is to investigate what your cooldowns are and make sure that they are available in your arsenal. Play around with them and see how they affect your numbers. Are they things you want to use every time they are up? or are they ones that can be saved for burn down phases? Its all part of the fun of the game.

Happy Hunting.

Gear Inflation

I don’t think it is a secret anymore, the people at the top 100 guild raiding level believe that “Raiding is for ONLY the RAIDERS!” They are really not interested in anyone else joining them. The more people that become better and become “raiders” the less “special” they feel.

The question really is, who are truly the raiders?

WoW has an issue with labels. Raider is probably the one that most people want to use for themselves but nobody really understands anymore. Raider is a catch all term for anyone that goes into an instance that requires more than 5 players. However there is a big gap from a person that killed Kelthuzad when Naxx was a 40 man and someone that killed Deathwing in LFR.

Time put into the game aside, there are plenty of BC and Wrath babies out there that are now raiding, there are huge factors that change how you look at those people.

The raider code is kind of an attempt at further defining that, but in reality a raider has been and will be defined by their gear.

If your gear says heroic and your ilvl is maxed out, you are at the top of your game. You might not be a hardcore raider, you might have been carried… but in the end the prestige of that gear is there.

Some of those people are now really troubled by the fact that anyone can now have a 4 set.

That used to separate people that could do progression vs people that could not. Now that 4 set capability is available to not just LFR babies, but normal mode teams.

Before the LFR our raid team had maybe 2/3 people with 4 set per tier if we were lucky. Now we have about 15 toons with 4 sets. That makes a huge difference. Something that was pretty unattainable for us before because of luck (some tokens seemed to never want to drop.) or just lack of progression, is now there.

The agility trinket that would have taken us probably months for our 2 hunters to get, I think they both have now. I remember deathbringers will almost broke up our raid team before. Once piece of gear… and so much drama. Can paladin’s really benefit? Why is that hunter getting it if so already got it… oh no we pug one DPS and he wins the roll for the trinket I waited 4 months for! I do not miss those days.

Now in our normal raid everyone passes on gear if they have the LFR version. I don’t even have to use loot council or points anymore to track gear. We know we can fill the gaps later. Same thing when I pug, I give loot to their toons because I am raiding on an alt with LFR gear… it does not hurt me, it helps other raid teams. (I prefer to pug normal with other guild teams rather than full trade chat pug.)

So from my point of view this is all unicorn and rainbows, but Raiders of the hardcore flavor are starting to say that “bads” don’t deserve 4 set. The same people that don’t understand that LFR is really not tuned or targeted at them, now feel that others don’t deserve the 4 set.

Is this whole prestige thing really that important to people?

I simply don’t get it, and not because I cannot attain it either… I am sure if I put enough effort into it I could probably be in a guild raiding more competitively, but I like raiding with my friends and our wives.

So I don’t think making it easy to gear right now and 4 set available to everyone is a bad thing for the game or for raiding. How do you feel about it? Seriously… is someone like me not worthy of a 4 set? Should we go back to a place where only a couple of people are able to attain it on a normal mode raiding guild?

I hate Douchewing

He has spent an entire expansion frying me like only goblins should be fried (I wonder if they taste like frog legs… I have never had froglegs btw.)

Well in reality, I have summoned more people to their death than I should be comfortable with. Only in our game do we get excited about someone getting an achievement that involved walking into a wall of fire to get a “Charred and Crispy” achievement.

Killing Ragnaros with new acquaintances in a new server felt really weird. I was used to only killing stuff with guildies. Sure in WoTLK I did a lot of Naxx, Ulduar and ToC with pugs… but after getting Kingslayers I thought it would always be a guild affair to down a new boss.

So I said to myself, lets make sure we kill Douchewing together… however Mr Frotobaggins had other plans. Elune bless him… he can pug like no other.

I knew he had been close to killing Douchewing before, with 3% wipes that seemed to be hunting him and the pug group that seemed to clean up the place after we were done with our attempts on the ship.

I was about to log off last night, and I recognized the person spamming in tradechat as possibly one of the people Froto was in Dragon Soul with. They needed a Disc Priest… I asked Froto, how are the attempts going… and he said, we need a disc priest. I cursed a little under my breath and told the pug RL that I will be right back on my priest.

3 attempts later and we had the shinny new “Destroyers End” title.

I should be happy right, I killed Douchewing before the OMG NERF! and sure, I am in some level. I know that what Froto and I did will help our future raids quite a bit. We now know what it takes to down that humongous dragon.

We could have never done that in our last server. This server has a lot of great pug raids… it seems like the quality of people is about our speed. No it is not a “everyone is awesome realm” more of a “everyone seems to be a decent person.”

There was excitement in vent after the kill. It was a first kill for everyone in the group. Besides my guild mate, it looked like it was a combination of groups of 2 from some guilds I recognized and some I had never heard of before.

The Douchewing fight is not too bad (madness that is) it just required lots of DPS and very frantic healing during some of the fight.

I was assigned the very daunting task of healing the tank as the last elementium bolt tried to just decimate us. The last burn phase with the adds is just as frantic and we ended up with only 3 people alive when he finally gave us the shinnies… none for me or froto because his /roll skills sucked.

The fight is actually very similar to the LFR, but just a lot more damage.

Most groups in the LFR go Left – Left – Right/Right/Right, but I guess the normal version goes Left/Left – Right – Right/Right. Other than that it seemed to be the same, just requiring tons more numbers… I think everyone was 40K plus on DPS… and I contributed about 10K worth of smite healing.

Without coordinating the healing cooldowns I think it went pretty well. The group seemed somewhat DPS centric with lots of big numbers just killing things quickly rather than tank or healing centric. It made me realize how different each group is. Our tanks do ridiculous damage… that should help this fight a bit when we get to it as a guild… who knows, that might even be tonight.

Reloaded is Recruiting

<Reloaded> is a casual guild that raids 10-man content. Our main raid team works on current content on Tuesday and Wednesday starting at 8:30 CST. We are looking to start our second team, and also have enough to run T11 and T12 25 mans. We love collecting pretty drakes and achievements.

We have a group of capable players and a friendly atmosphere. Most of us are adults with full- time jobs and we raid with our spouses, so couples are welcome as long as there is flexibility when only one of you is needed. Our goal is to rescue the princess while the content is relevant, but people, real life and relationships mean more than us than loot. While we want you to be able to perform as a raider, it is more important to us that you are a nice person.

We will love some tanks and healers, but all classes are welcome. We like our tanks and healers to love those jobs. It is our experience that when someone is pushed to do something they don’t enjoy, they will not take it as seriously or excel at it. Even if you are just starting out on those roles, we will help you take it to the next level!

Apart from being competent at playing your main spec, we expect the following of all members:

- You keep up with your class changes and see them as a challenge, not a reason to gripe.
- While we encourage alts, you should keep your main raid-ready and make that character your priority.
- Always be willing to look up fights or alternative strats prior to the raid time.
- Always show up repaired, enchanted and gemmed.
- Value people over gear. If you are looking to just gear up to start hardmodes with another guild, this is not the place for you.

What we provide

- Level 25 guild with repairs for all our members.
- Consumables for raids including flasks and feasts.
- Enchants and gems at no cost to our guild members with materials
(sometimes provided if available.) We already have 2/3 of the epic gem
patterns.
- A relaxed raiding atmosphere where we help each other and you will be treated like an adult.
- Frotobaggins always looking to raid every single minute he is online. If you love to raid any type of content he will go with you!

A little about us

is a casual guild in Whisperwind-US (PvE, CST). We recently opened our doors in Whisperwind, but the guild is level 25 and some of us have played together for over 3 years. We like to do old content and help each other get achievements. We like to see content and take raiding seriously, but don’t want to be server first or care if our gear is heroic. We see gear as a tool, not as a goal. Most of us are adults and our median age is 30, but we have people from their mid 20s to 50s in our ranks. We are starting Dragon Soul, but will still like to go to Firelands and complete achievements and hard-modes,
we are looking forward to completing a couple of legendaries for our warlock and mage.

We are a no-drama clique and we want you to become a part of it. We value the social aspect of WoW and like to have a sense of community. We are looking for long-term members who will stick around and continue to
make our guild great to be a part of. We know each other outside the game, and had a chance to meet each other at Blizzcon.

The values our guild adheres to are simple:

Respect “To each other, our server and the WoW community”
Integrity “we do what we say, and do what is right”
Openness “Zero drama and gossip, you have an issue discuss it and move on”
Teamwork “We kill bosses together, but also wipe together”

If you like what you have read here and are thinking of applying or you have further questions, contact Logtar in game (alts: Hollogos – Gatoso). Add me to your real ID (logtar at gmail dot com)

Why Does My DPS suck? – Add Ons

I have a love/hate relationship with addons. Some are extremely helpful, some clutter the screen, some make life convenient until a patch breaks them. I think the important thing to remember about addons is that they are not required for you to play WoW.

This topic can turn into a monster, but lets look at it from the starting DPS point of view.

The first thing you need to do is to know why your DPS sucks. While a friend linking you (or that Pug that topped the charts) the meter for the last fight will give you some idea, it will not give you the real picture. Enter recount.

Recount is an addon that can provide a lot of information. Before the tooltips on the character sheet were updated to display a little more information about what the numbers meant, recount was the place I would look to see if I was missing with my abilities.

So step one is to download an addon that tells you where you stand DPS wise.

I think the following numbers will stay true until the end of Cata. These are the numbers you should be hitting to be on par with that content.

7K-9K – Dungeons – Greens and blues
10-12K – Herioc – Entry level – All blues
13-15K – Troll Heroics – T11 – Mostly Purples
16-18K – Firelands – HoT Heroics – T12 – iLvL 360+
19-22K – LFR – 1st half of Normal DS – iLvL 372+
23-28K – Normal DS – iLvL 380+
30-35K – Heroic DS – iLvL 390+

I am sure some people will think that those numbers are in the low side. I have seen people hit ridiculous numbers on greens and blues, and vice-versa, seen purpled out people not do more than 12K. I think the above are realistic numbers to look at.

Keep in mind that those are not dummy – static numbers, but sustained DPS. What that means is the DPS that you can sustain during a fight including moving and repositioning. A mage can hit 30K in the beginning of a fight blowing all his cooldowns, that does not mean that they are a 30K mage. A good way to look at meters is to look at Damage Done and see where your DPS stacks compared to other classes. So look at the numbers and compare them with the chart above but not as a high water mark, more of as an average.

If your numbers don’t seem to hit the above or even be close to it, there are also addons that can help you out.

One of the biggest problems with DPSers that are starting out is that they don’t know about uptime of dots and debuffs. Most classes have a debuff they need to keep up, some have several. Finding an addon that will display it for you will give you a constant reminder while in combat of keeping that debuff up. For a warrior for example, their shouts and rend are very necessary for the DPS to stay up. Druids with their Fairy Fire, DKs Diseases, etc. I use Power Auras for displaying what I need to keep up, and the cool think about it is that you can import auras from people that already built them. There are other addons like Tell Me When that might be a little easier to set up for a beginner. The WoW UI will display them for you, and it is now a little more configurable as well.

Keeping track of your Dots and Debuffs (as well as buffs) will affect your DPS greatly. Just keeping battle shout up is about 2K DPS for a warrior.

When starting out with addons a little way to cheat is to download an addon pack. The downside to going this route is that there might be too much going on, or it might be too different than the regular WoW UI. You also have to keep in mind that your computer has to be able to handle the added workload that more addons will put on it. I say to start out with just keep it simple and work with a couple of addons at a time.

All of this is not required to play the game, but if you want to raid and don’t use the tools you will certainly be at a disadvantage. While Blizzard has gone a lot further down the path of making things more configurable, addons are still a part of the raiding game.

Why Does my DPS suck? – Computer

I am starting a new mini series of post geared towards helping people that are searching for the reason that they are told that they suck. Hopefully some of the people that don’t suck still read this and are maybe a little more patient with the people that are not topping the charts.

One of the things that made WoW ultra-popular was that even if you had an older computer you could still play. The graphics engine was very forgiving and let you turn the settings way down without taxing older hardware.

I know a lot of people complain about the shitty graphics that WoW has, old models, etc. The reality is that it being behind on the graphics allowed for a lot of people to play the game. You did not need a gaming machine to run WoW… that is until Cata came out.

One of the many things that hurt our guild quite a bit when Cata hit was that a lot of people were playing on older computers. I have been a gamer for a long time, so even though my computer was not the latest, I had the ram and video card that WoW could run fine if I played with the settings turned down a bit.

If you have never seen WoW run on a high end machine, you probably are playing a different game than most. The spell effects and water effects are not on par with other games that have amazing graphics, but they are not all that horrible either. That said, it will also affect your DPS or your healing if your machine is a little older. Not to mention that you probably stand in a lot more fires.

While the easy answer is, go get a better computer if you want to play end game. There are ways to fix the issue.

The first one is to make sure you maximize your memory both physical and virtual. Do a search for your operating system and how to increase your virtual memory. The more the computer can keep in memory, the better WoW will run for you.

Second is to make sure your computer is up to date or at least optimized when it comes to drivers for your graphics card. You can search for your graphics card model and world of warcraft and get informed on what the best set of drivers is. You will be surprised at how specific sometimes things get. You might find a post about your card that says, hey WoW works best with this set of drivers. (sometimes it is not the latest drivers available.)

Third is to make sure you are using the correct Direct X. While WoW supports that latest and greatest your computer might work better with the older version.

Fourth is to play with your graphic setting inside of WoW. There are a couple ways to approach this. If you want the best graphics possible with your set up, you can turn everything up and start turning things down gradually. Make sure you read the tooltips of each one of the settings. The one I recommend is to turn everything down and then slowly turn things up.

Fifth and last is do you run a lot of addons? Some addons can really bring WoW to a crawl, specially in raids. I stopped using Recount and switched to Skada for tracking numbers… but I used to advocate turning all addons off during raids. I think if your computer is older, there is really no reason for you to run a damage meter during a raid. You can have someone else whisper you the numbers if you are really that curious.

The first step towards better DPS is to play in the best version of WoW you can. You might be trying to ride a bike with flat tires… no wonder you cannot get up the hill.